Addiction Interventionist & Substance Abuse Counsellor Bobby Newman in The Wellness Hub
Bobby Newman is a Certified Substance Abuse Counselor, Prevention Specialist and Intervention Professional with a 90% success rate of getting people into treatment. He is a former addict, so knows all the whys and hows that prevent the addict from getting clean and sober.
Bobby has developed a “25 Tips for a Successful Intervention” guide and an online course consisting of a series of videos to help YOU to do your own intervention and get your loved one into treatment NOW.
Transcript
Karen Kelly:
Hi, this is Karen Kelly, and you are listening to an Appetite For Life. There’s a great mix on this show, there’s various topics, amazing guests and vocational celebrity [inaudible 00:00:14] So I am delighted to be joined today by Bobby Newman. He’s an Addiction Interventionist, Certified Drug Prevention Professional and Substance Abuse Counselor. So welcome Bobby. It’s really great to have you on the show.
Bobby Newman:
Thank you very much. I really appreciate it. I’m glad to be here.
Karen Kelly:
So Bobby, it’s such a great introduction. An addiction Interventionist, Certified Drug Prevention Professional and Substance Abuse Counselor. You’ve clearly got a story yourself. So tell us a bit about yourself and how you got into this industry.
Bobby Newman:
Well, I grew up in a very small town in Oklahoma, which is way over here in the middle of the United States. And it’s a state just above Texas, just for folks who are not that familiar with it. But anyway, I grew up in a very, very small town of a few hundred people. Very, very Christian geographical area, but claim to fame is the movie Footloose. I don’t know if you’ve guys seen it? Movie Footloose, was based on events that happened in my hometown in 1980. And the school dance and that’s true. A lot of the things in the movie weren’t true, but there was a ban on dancing and things like that.
Bobby Newman:
But there was a high rate of kids that were drinking in high school and a lot of unfortunately deaths that happened per capita it was quite a lot. But the mentality and the Christian background and the religious background was very heavy, but it was very confusing because drinking seemed to be okay. It’s like now hard drugs was a problem. Didn’t do hard drugs. Not that many kids did hard drugs in that area, but there were a few, but a lot of kids were drinking.
Karen Kelly:
They tend to alcohol. Was it because it was a cheaper option?
Bobby Newman:
I think it was just more socially acceptable, honestly. And there was an age limit. I mean, you’re supposed to be at the time, 18 years old, but you didn’t have to, you always had friends or a sister or cousin or somebody. I mean, not my sisters, but somebody’s family member that would, or a friend that would get you what you needed. But then, from there it went on from alcohol to marijuana. And then, when I went to college to play football, it went to amphetamines. And there was a prescription amphetamine that I would get from another player. And I remember it made me feel so good. I was like, “Wow, where’s this stuff been?” And I started doing it more and more frequently. And then it turned into an addiction.
Karen Kelly:
What you call frequently Bobby, how often?
Bobby Newman:
Well, I would say when I started alcohol was quite often and marijuana was quite very frequently. I mean, it was almost just a thing you did.
Karen Kelly:
Yes. Every time you’d light up a cigarette, you’d be smoking marijuana.
Bobby Newman:
Yeah. Let’s go get high. Let’s go do the… We got a free minute. I mean, after football practice, we’d go out and drink beer. But speed it got to where I would do it one time a week. I would get a capsule and I would break it in half and I could take the capsule and go out and drink. On a Thursday night, was the night that all the college kids went out. And so I could go out and drink, not get too drunk. I would take the amphetamines. And then the next day I would wake up and take the rest of the pill and I just would always feel good. I was like, “This is great.”
Karen Kelly:
How old were you Bobby at the time?
Bobby Newman:
18, 19 years old.
Karen Kelly:
That’s a really delicate age, isn’t it? When you need to be thinking, what am I going to do in my life? Where’s my career going to go? You’re probably at college and thinking you’re going to go to university. And were you aware that this was addiction at that point?
Bobby Newman:
No.
Karen Kelly:
No.
Bobby Newman:
No. I would’ve told you at the time that, “Nah, it’s no big deal. I can stop any anytime I want to. I’m just doing this for the kicks to have a good time.” And even years later when I was in a lot of trouble. I mean, I had probably about… Well, seven or eight years later, I was in a lot of legal trouble. I had trouble in two different states, for four different things going on at the same time, and it was all related to substance abuse. And I would’ve told you, “Oh, I don’t have a problem. I could stop anytime I want.”
Karen Kelly:
Did you ever try to stop, but you couldn’t or not?
Bobby Newman:
I did try to stop at one point, few years later I tried to stop drinking alcohol so frequently, but I tried to stop doing it by smoking marijuana.
Karen Kelly:
Yeah. So yeah, not quite the answer. Is it?
Bobby Newman:
No, that was ridiculous.
Karen Kelly:
And can I ask you what sort of criminal activity you were involved in as a result of taking the drugs?
Bobby Newman:
Well, it was primarily dealing drugs to try to support my habit. And then it got to where not obviously, but things like drinking and driving. And then again, dealing drugs, I never really got into stealing or anything, but there was a certain amount… Later on when I was heavily heavily addicted. I mean, I was obviously addicted, but I always felt like I could stop at any moment, years later I was trying to stop and I couldn’t. But I got into doing things such as stealing and things to support my habit.
Karen Kelly:
And then it’s talk for you to maybe you were faced with a federal prison sentence, weren’t you?
Bobby Newman:
Yeah, I was actually working and was stupid enough to drive onto a military base with a loaded gun and with-
Karen Kelly:
Oh my goodness!
Bobby Newman:
… Drugs and got pulled over. And got charged but I was smart enough to walk into a federal courthouse and negotiate seven years and 300,000 in fines down to about two weeks in jail and about, yeah, $2,500 in fines without an attorney. I was smart enough to be able to manipulate the court systems by that time. I knew how they worked and what they wanted to see and do. So I was able to manipulate that in my favor, but then yet I was so heavily addicted I could not get past the probation. They put me on probation for six months and I had to follow some guidelines and pass drug tests and show up for proceedings and things. And I would always either not show up, I’d failed a couple of my drug tests and then they were like, “Okay, now we’re going to go back to the original sentence of seven years and put you in several hundred thousands in fines, if you do this one more time.”
Karen Kelly:
That was a wake up call for you.
Bobby Newman:
Yeah. But it still it wasn’t enough. I still was right up to the point of, I was going to take the drug test the next day and I was going to fail it and that was going to be it. They’d already been told one more time, “That’s it, you’re going.” You would think that was enough to make me stop using, but it wasn’t. I blasted I don’t know right up but as far as I could, I called my dad and I knew I was going to have a drug test the next day. And I said, “Look, I need to do something.” So we were able to go in and manipulate this kind of go in and out. We went into rehab and luckily the court system allowed me to stay in rehab because it was a long term program. They thought, “Well, if he’s trying to help himself if he stays in there, then we don’t have to put him in jail.”
Karen Kelly:
I mean, in one way you are lucky because there’s so many that will go down the route having to go to jail, then it’s an even deepest spiral, isn’t it? And they’ll come out, take more drugs and reoffend.
Bobby Newman:
Yeah. If I had not have taken that step at that moment, I would’ve ended up in jail and I wouldn’t be here right now. Who knows what would’ve happened? Because the people that are in jail are… Anyway, it just wouldn’t have been good.
Karen Kelly:
And it must’ve been really tough on your family. Did they try and help you prior to it getting to the stage of going to prison? Did they try and help you in other rehab centers or? It must’ve been terrible for them.
Bobby Newman:
Well, yeah, it was terrible for them and they had tried to help me, they would always do things. I would get thrown in jail, they would bail me out of jail. Or if I wanted the vehicle, they would make sure that I had the vehicle to drive. And it was constantly what we call cleaning up the mess. And it wasn’t until they actually came out and they started talking about going to get some help going into a treatment program. At the time I thought, “Well, I don’t really have any faith that there’s people out there that can help me, that really know what I’m going through.” So I wasn’t too keen. And I saw a lot of my friends go to treatment, come out relapse immediately.
Karen Kelly:
[crosstalk 00:09:26] and you thought that would be you?
Bobby Newman:
Yeah. And I thought, “Well, what’s the point if that’s all I have, really I can’t see myself having much success.” And luckily my sister was able to find a program that was focused on health first and then counseling second. Which I gravitated towards that because I played football and liked to be physically healthy even though I wasn’t, I think I wanted to be.
Karen Kelly:
And how long was it Bobby, while you were in rehab? How long did it take for you to maybe be clear or you could think clearly, and you knew you didn’t want to reoffend and you didn’t want to take more drugs again?
Bobby Newman:
I was probably there about two, two and a half months, before I found-
Karen Kelly:
That’s really good actually, isn’t it? That’s really good. I thought you were going to say about two and a half years.
Bobby Newman:
Well, I was actually two and a half months before I could start thinking clearly.
Karen Kelly:
Yeah. I’m with you.
Bobby Newman:
I Was the program close to four months, but I had some significant changes with myself. And you just become a person that you never thought you would be, and guilt is a big factor. The three major barriers to achieving recovery are overcoming the cravings, depression and anxiety, and then the third thing is guilt. And when the guilt comes and flashes itself in front of you, and you’re like, “Oh my gosh.” And you realize what you’ve done and what you’ve been doing. And then if you can handle that and you can relieve yourself of that burden, then you experience relief. And that was for me, what happened. I was like, “Oh my gosh. I obviously have to take responsibility for my actions, but I feel so much better because I’ve unburdened myself that I can now realize, okay, well I can think clear and feel better.” And I’m like, “Oh, I’ve actually turned the corner.”
Bobby Newman:
Because it’s like having a major headache or something. And then, you all of a sudden the headache goes away and you’re like, “Oh, I feel so much better.” And you never want to go back to that.
Karen Kelly:
And I can imagine when you were say 18, so when it first started for you and you first started on this path. What ambitions did you have then? Did you know what you wanted to do as a career?
Bobby Newman:
See that’s the kicker right there. Is that you look at kids that you ask them today. What do you want to do with your life? And they don’t have an answer? That kid’s probably going to be in trouble.
Karen Kelly:
Yeah. I mean, not everybody knows, but they’ve got some sort of a guide or some sort of an idea what subjects they like, but once you’ve gone down that kind of route, that’s all forgotten about. Isn’t it? And I wondered, did you soon get back on that path?
Bobby Newman:
I did. But the truth is I really didn’t know for sure what I wanted to do. I know what I thought I wanted to do. I thought about I wanted to be a Coach, or I wanted to be a Physical Therapist and I was just going through life and going okay. I don’t know. I can’t really sink my teeth into anything. And that’s when bad decisions come along, or bad opportunities come along and you take it, you go that direction.
Bobby Newman:
Or if you see somebody who’s made their mind up and they have intention of accomplishing something. They’re less likely to let something distract them from that. But you’re right with your question is that somebody can be on a path, they’re going, “I want to be a Doctor, I want to be whatever, I want to be an Olympic athlete, or I want to work at the Fire Station.” And whatever it might be and then they get injured or they have a traumatic event happen to them. And then they turn to drugs for whatever reason. And then the drugs become a problem, it could take them off that given course. So anyway, I don’t want to, I could go into that.
Karen Kelly:
I know it’s so interesting, isn’t it? It really is. But what I did want to ask you, Bobby, was during your years in rehab, what did you discover about yourself and why you may have fallen down such a destructive road in the first place?
Bobby Newman:
I discovered for myself that obviously I had things happen to me that were not optimum growing up, but me hanging onto those things was my own decision.
Karen Kelly:
Yeah. And the demons aren’t they? We’ve all got demons. Yeah.
Bobby Newman:
We all have things that have happened that are we could hang our hat on and go, “You know what this happened to me, but for me to allow that to continue to burden me is now my responsibility.” I have to learn to deal with it and move on and look for tomorrow and what’s tomorrow going to be. And so when I was able to learn how to… And at the end of the day, most people will feel responsible for that, whatever that might have been even though they might have been victimized, somehow they feel responsible. What do they do to cause that, and you have to learn how to live with it and then not continue to be a victim. Even though you can be victimized, you continue to live as a victim, then they really never win anything. Anyway, I hope that makes sense and it doesn’t come across incorrectly.
Karen Kelly:
No, no, it definitely does make sense. And another question I wanted to ask, what is treatment like? I mean, of course we’ve all seen various films. I remember watching Ben Is Back with Julia Roberts, and A Street Cat Named Bob. I’m not sure if you’ve seen those two films. I know we have older films like Trainspotting, around drugs but more recently you’ve got those two films about addiction. So what’s treatment like? What was it like for you? Well, what was the worst part for you?
Bobby Newman:
The worst part for me was confronting my own… What you call, well, demons or the things that I had thought wrong-
Karen Kelly:
Facing them. Face the fears.
Bobby Newman:
… That guilt that comes flashing you in the face. And you’re like, “Oh my gosh.” But for me, I looked around when I first walked onto the program that I went to and I listened to the people that were on the program. I listened and I heard laughter and I saw people. They seemed to be happy. They seemed to glad to be there. And then I talked to a couple of them and I thought, “I could like these people.” It doesn’t seem to be like an institution. And for me it was almost like going back to college only you’re going to school to learn something about your life.
Karen Kelly:
Every day is school day, isn’t it? And you must have learnt so much from those other individuals as well. And seeing them laughing, seeing their success, there is a light at the end of the tunnel, “I’m going to go for that. I’m going to go down that road.”
Bobby Newman:
Yeah, exactly. These folks have done it. And a lot of the staff members had been there and done it and they seemed happy. They were very executive type people and I grew up in construction work. I was a construction worker, metal worker, and also grew up on a farm. I come from that heavy labor background, but these guys were more executive type folks that I was interested in that. It was a level of… But they’d also been where I was at, a matter of fact I was in there with some people, one guy was a Stockbroker from Wall Street and another guy owned his own law firm from Michigan. And he had several attorneys that worked for him. And we were all right there together. He used to give me a hard time because they called me a country boy from Oklahoma. And so it was funny because I was laughing at them and whatever we did we all ended up in the same place.
Karen Kelly:
Exactly. And this is just stick with addiction. It doesn’t just choose a certain type of person. Does it? It’s everybody, no one can escape it, but it’s amazing how one individual will be addicted to something and another won’t.
Bobby Newman:
That’s an interesting point because I had an opportunity to live in Hawaii for about 10 years. And that’s how miraculous my life has changed. I did live in Hawaii for about 10 years and I had a neighbor that was in the military and he was very career driven, very family oriented guy, but on the weekends he would have the barbecue and they would bring out the alcohol and he would drink excessively. And matter of fact, he even asked me one day, he just asked if I had alcohol problem. And I said, “Well, when you put all your family and your career in one hand and alcohol on the other and you choose the alcohol, then you obviously have a problem.” People that that pass that threshold and they’ve already passed the point of not being able to make that decision.
Karen Kelly:
Bobby, we’re just going to take a short break and we’ll be back in a few minutes time. I’m just going to give a shout out to my fabulous sponsors. Let me introduce our sponsor, Everything Genetic Limited, specialists in preventive healthcare testing, helping people to identify, to see if they are at risk of developing common heredity cancers and heart conditions. Based in Nantwich Cheshire, they partnered with some of the UK’s market leading laboratories, supplying revolutionary genetic tests to healthcare providers and patients for the detection, diagnosis, and treatment planning of cancer, heart disease, and other illnesses. One of their main aims is to democratize genetic testing, meaning everyone can take control of their own wellbeing and healthcare to detect any problems at an early stage when they are most treatable.
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Karen Kelly:
So welcome back where we’re talking to Bobby Newman, Addiction Interventionist, Certified Drug Prevention Professional and Substance Abuse Counselor. So welcome back, Bobby. So we’ve been talking about obviously addiction, your time in rehab. Let’s talk about 10 things parents need to know about drugs, especially in 2022. What can you tell us?
Bobby Newman:
That’s a very interesting question and I hear all the time. “He’s just smoking marijuana.”
Karen Kelly:
He’s just… Yeah.
Bobby Newman:
It’s not just marijuana back in the day. You always hear it is more potent. And actually I’ve seen more young people today are completely psychotic and all they’re testing for is marijuana. I mean, all they’re testing positive for is marijuana now. And the potency of the marijuana is significantly higher. Even the marijuana you get out of the dispensaries, but they’re also taking this wax and they’re pulling the oil, the THC out of the plant and it’s 97 to 100% pure THC and they’re putting it in vape pens and smoking it that way. So it’s a very concentrated form of THC that will cause and can cause psychosis. So marijuana, it’s not just marijuana anymore, there’s pesticides on it. It’s highly addictive, it’s causing psychosis in kids. The younger they start the more likely that they are to develop other mental, emotional issues. Two is kids are buying their drugs off the social media. So please keep an eye on fentanyl. It’s running rampant across the country and it kills instantly. Please be on the lookout.
Karen Kelly:
What’s fentanyl, Bobby? What is that? How are you spelling that?
Bobby Newman:
Fentanyl is F-E-N-T-Y-N-A-L.
Karen Kelly: (21:55)
And where are kids getting that from? And what would it normally treat?
Bobby Newman:
It’s normally treats pain. It’s a pain medication that they use in hospitals for acute chronic, high pain that you have during surgery. It’s the most potent pain killer that they have.
Karen Kelly:
Wow. Okay. So that’s fentanyl.
Bobby Newman:
Yeah. A little speck of it is enough to kill somebody.
Karen Kelly:
Wow. Wow. Okay.
Bobby Newman:
Powder cocaine. Number two, ecstasy MDMA is right behind that. Then you have ketamine and then you have amphetamine.
Karen Kelly:
And there’s different variations though, as well. Different mixes isn’t there that are really, really the killers aren’t they?
Bobby Newman:
Yeah. I mean, and people are mixing these things. I mean, I was looking at the statistics about it and I was like, “Powder cocaine and then you get opioids.” I thought maybe opioids would be up there. But it’s actually marijuana, powder cocaine, ecstasy, ketamine, amphetamine. And then, if you want me to go back and list these out, I can, but that’s number eight, as far as the 10 things. And then on number nine, as far as what parents need to know, it’s never too soon to do an intervention on your child or your loved one. It’s always too late.
Karen Kelly:
Right. So if they’ve got any suspicion whatsoever, they need to intervene straight away.
Bobby Newman:
They need to intervene and they need to try to set the course straight. They need to either talk to somebody, get some guidance. It’s not an easy thing to do, to handle your kids on drugs. I had my 30 year old when he was 15, I had to handle him. And I do this for a living. I’ve done it hundreds, if not thousands of times. When it came to my own son, I had to consult somebody to help me because of my emotions were making my decisions for me. So I had to have somebody coaching me, and so it’s never too soon to intervene. It’s always too late. We wait until something tragic happens and then we start [crosstalk 00:23:48]
Karen Kelly:
Trouble, isn’t it? Yeah.
Bobby Newman:
So let’s head it off. Let’s prevent that from happening. The number 10 is an intervention is going to happen. If your child is on the path of making bad decisions and he is hanging around people that are also making bad decisions… My grandmother used to tell me, “You are who you run with.” The fact your son or daughter has a bunch of friends that are kind of sketchy, guess what? There’s an agreement somewhere with that group of people.
Karen Kelly:
But it must be really difficult though, to pull that child away from that group because they won’t see it. Will they?
Bobby Newman:
Yeah. They won’t see it. I didn’t see it years ago. I did not see it. I mean, I look around my… But they would make comments and I’m like, “Ah, that’s not true.” Be able to set out a look and see where are your friends headed? Where are your friends? If you get in a binder, your friends going to help you out. Are they going to be able to help you out? What type of character are these people? I mean, I look back now and it’s so simple.
Karen Kelly:
If they got your back. Yes or no?
Bobby Newman:
Yeah. Even if they do have my back, would they be able to help me? Do they have means? That that type of thing.
Karen Kelly:
So can we just talk about club drugs? I know we’ve mentioned 10 things parents need to know and what drugs are involved in that. What kind of drugs are going around clubs at the moment?
Bobby Newman:
Well, that’s a great question. I mean, be honest ketamine is one and then MDMA which is ecstasy, these are heavy, heavy drugs.
Karen Kelly:
And many teenagers have died. Haven’t they taken ecstasy?
Bobby Newman:
Yes, yes. Their blood pressure goes up, their body overheats and they become dehydrated and it’s just so toxic. The theme it is that if you go to tell your kids that, “You’re going to die, if you do drugs.” To them it’s not a real statement. And because the first time they see their friends doing drugs, they’re going to be having fun, laughing. For me, I was like, “Oh, that doesn’t seem to be too bad.” And so I became very curious at that point and I wanted to try it. So I always give them the information of this is how it goes. You’ll see your friends [crosstalk 00:26:11].
Karen Kelly:
Well, no doubt you’ve got hands on experience, haven’t you? So let’s talk about all the work that you do. So there’s the rehab center, revolving door and how to close it with remote sober coaching. So is this part of what you’re offering on your courses?
Bobby Newman:
Yes, I do courses on intervention, also I work with people via Zoom and things like that with sober coaching and we work with them to help them understand the barriers to achieving recovery. This is after somebody has basically fallen off the pit, how to get them out of the pit. And we help them overcome the barriers, which would be the primary barriers to achieving permanent recovery overcoming the cravings because there-
Karen Kelly:
Yeah. Because the detox side it’s painful, isn’t it?
Bobby Newman:
Yes. Yes it is. Yes.
Karen Kelly:
And what sort of symptoms do people go through during the detox?
Bobby Newman:
Well, with opioids, you’re going to become extremely sick. You’re going to have cramps. You’re going to have headaches. You’re going to have nausea. It has the exact opposite effect that you have when the person is under the influence of the drug. The person is going to be numb. When they’re on the drug, they’re going to be numb. They’re going to be very lethargic on opioids. That is, they’re going to be what they call nod off. Meaning you fall asleep in the gravy when you come over for Thanksgiving dinner. So it has the opposite effect. When you start coming off the drug, then you start feeling the pain because it numbs you. There’s a lot of pain, nausea, headaches, you can’t sleep. You’re having the worst case of flu that you can imagine magnified by about 10.
Karen Kelly:
And how long does that detox period last? Is it days? Is it weeks?
Bobby Newman:
It just depends, with heroin or opioids generally, it’s about five to seven days.
Karen Kelly:
Yeah. And that’s horrendous to go through, isn’t it? Well, you can’t understand it, but you could sort of see why they start taking drugs again, because it will all go away.
Bobby Newman:
Right, exactly. Yep. And then drugs like methadone, which is a synthetic opioid, it could take 20 to 30 days or all. So for the withdrawal symptoms to go away. Now, cocaine and methamphetamine, or amphetamines and stimulants. You really feel very lethargic. A stimulant will make you have a lot of energy or you’ll be awake a lot and you’ll be kind of… It has the exact opposite effect when you’re coming off of it. You’re going to want to sleep a lot. You’re going to crave a lot of sugar. All you’re going to want to do is eat and sleep for probably three to four days. And then before you can come back to normal.
Karen Kelly:
Yeah. So once they’ve got past that detox section area of the recovery, is it a withdrawal then?
Bobby Newman:
It is. Your body goes through a withdrawal and it goes through what they call a toxic shock. In other words, it doesn’t have that substance that it’s used to having. And it goes into a kind of a shock to-
Karen Kelly:
Gosh! Wow. You don’t realize the treatment sounds like torture, isn’t it?
Bobby Newman:
Yeah. And that’s why people don’t want to go through that. Their brain has basically been short circuited and their body is going through all these cravings. And your body is in a stimulus response system and it gets used to operating off that substance. And then when it doesn’t happen anymore, it just automatically craves it. And I could go into that, that’s a whole another talk, but it’s quite severe. And people don’t realize, that’s the hidden thing behind the scenes that’s going on. That’s driving the addiction that people don’t realize.
Karen Kelly:
Yeah. Yeah. Oh Bobby, it’s been great talking to you today. It’s an interesting subject because so many people obviously affected by drugs or alcohol, any sort of addiction. And I admire anyone that can come through the other side and live a normal life and have a career and put it behind them, just like you have. So for our listeners, how can they get in touch with you? If anybody knows someone, a family member maybe suffers something similar to you and they need help, or if they want to look at your courses. How can they get in touch?
Bobby Newman:
I have a couple of websites, newmaninterventions.com, which is N-E-W-M-A-N interventions.com. They can call me at (866) 989-4499. And we also have a life coaching program for people that have tried treatment or are completed a treatment program and are now trying to get back on track with the rest of their life. It’s called Angel Life Coaches. They can go to angellifecoaches.org or they go to newmaninterventions.com.
Karen Kelly:
Yeah. Wonderful. Oh, well I wish you all the best with your courses and you never know our paths might cross again.
Bobby Newman:
Yes, ma’am. I would definitely enjoy that.
Karen Kelly:
You’ve been listening to my podcast, Appetite For Life, also supported by sponsor Dane Bank House Dental Practice, where happiness starts with a smile. Would you like to be a guest on this show or maybe you’re interested in a sponsorship package for any further information? You can find me across various social media platforms as Karen Kelly podcast, or send me an email karenlindakelly@btinternet.com.
